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	<title>Hauri yDNA Project</title>
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		<title>Hauri yDNA Project</title>
		<link>http://hauridna.com</link>
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		<title>Re-writing the Rhaetians</title>
		<link>http://hauridna.com/2012/01/01/re-writing-the-rhaetians/</link>
		<comments>http://hauridna.com/2012/01/01/re-writing-the-rhaetians/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Jan 2012 19:00:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Justin Swanstrom</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Updates]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Etruscans]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Rhaetians]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hauridna.wordpress.com/?p=342</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks to a link posted in one of the Haplogroup G groups on Facebook we have a new way of looking at the history of the Rhaetians. I say &#8220;new&#8221; with tongue in cheek. Back in 1830 Henry Malden (1800-1876) looked at the connection between the Rhaetians and Etruscans. Malden was Professor of Greek at University [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=hauridna.com&#038;blog=12745524&#038;post=342&#038;subd=hauridna&#038;ref=&#038;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p style="text-align:justify;">Thanks to a link posted in one of the Haplogroup G groups on <a title="Facebook" href="http://www.facebook.com/groups/100771939976065/" target="_blank">Facebook</a> we have a new way of looking at the history of the Rhaetians. I say &#8220;new&#8221; with tongue in cheek.</p>
<p style="text-align:justify;">Back in 1830 Henry Malden (1800-1876) looked at the connection between the Rhaetians and Etruscans. Malden was Professor of Greek at University College London. He concluded that the Etruscans  (probably) came out of the Rhaetian homeland onto the plains of northern Italy (<a title="History of Rome" href="http://books.google.com/books?id=Wn0PAAAAYAAJ" target="_blank">History of Rome</a>, by Henry Malden, (1830), pp. 64, 73-80).</p>
<p style="text-align:justify;">Malden&#8217;s theory reverses the traditional account. Roman historians Pliny the Elder, Livy, Trogus and Justin combine to tell the story. There was a linguistic connection between the Etruscans and some of the mountain tribes, including the Rhaetians. The Rhaetians were Etruscan refugees from a 4th century invasion of Italy by the Gauls. But, Rhaetian culture had little resemblance to the sophisticated Etruscans. Their manners were savage, but this is because they had become roughened by living in the mountains. Niebuhr and  Mommsen, the eminent 19th scholars, accepted this view of Rhaetian origins.</p>
<p style="text-align:justify;">Malden plausibly suggests the opposite &#8211; it was the Etruscans who were descendants of the Rhaetians, not vice versa. He provides no evidence, only conjecture and logic. He argues:</p>
<blockquote><p>The natural movement of the population expelled by the Gauls would have been to fall back upon the main body of their nation in their oldest seats south of the Apennines (which, with the swamps between them and the Po, actually formed an available line of defense), not to insulate themselves in the northern mountains. But if Raetia was the mother-country, whence the Etruscans descended into the plains of Italy, it may be easily believed, that a part of the nation staid [sic] behind, and to them the dwellers about the Po may have returned when they sought shelter from the terrible Gauls [citation omitted].  It may be esteemed a confirmation of this hypothesis of the origin of the Etruscans, that they believed the north to be the seat of their gods [citation omitted]. (Malden, 85.)</p></blockquote>
<p style="text-align:justify;">Elsewhere in the same book, Malden draws on Niebuhr to disentangle the Tyrsenians (and the Tyrrhennians) from the Etruscans:</p>
<blockquote><p>If then we are to believe that the name Tyrseni in Italy belonged originally and properly to the Pelasgian population, the question still remains, how the Greek writers invariably called the Etruscans Tyrseni and Etruria Tyrsenia. The true solution of the problem is, that the country retained its early appellation, and the Etruscans who conquered it succeeded to the name of its former inhabitants. (Malden, 78.)</p></blockquote>
<p style="text-align:justify;">What are we to make of Malden&#8217;s theory? He hasn&#8217;t proved his case. No one can do that using only the written sources. But, he&#8217;s made a good point. It makes more sense that the Etruscans were Rhaetians who came down from the Alps and evolved a more sophisticated culture through contact with their neighbors than that Rhaetians were Etruscans who retreated into new territory and stayed.</p>
<p style="text-align:justify;">Modern genetics might also support Malden&#8217;s version of events. There is a growing body of evidence to support the early theory that G2 entered Europe with Neolithic farmers. We&#8217;ve seen the 2010 discovery of a  G2a3 skeleton in excavations at the Neolithic cemetery of <a title="Derenburg Meerenstieg II" href="http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1000536" target="_blank">Derenburg Meerenstieg II</a>, in north central Germany, probably dated between 5,100 and 6,100 years ago. In 2011 a family of G2a persons &#8212; 20 of 22 samples &#8212; was found in a cave at <a title="Treilles" href="http://www.pnas.org/content/108/24/9788.full" target="_blank">Treilles</a> in southern France. The skeletons have been dated to 5,000 years ago. Finally, we&#8217;ve also seen the dramatic 2011 announcement that DNA tests on <a title="Ötzi the Iceman" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otzi" target="_blank">Ötzi the Iceman</a>, a mummy discovered in 1991, show he belonged to Haplogroup G2a4. He is thought to have lived about 5,300 years ago.</p>
<p style="text-align:justify;">All of these skeletons date from long before the ethnogenesis of the Etruscans and Rhaetians about 2,700 years ago. And, none of these discoveries can prove that members of Haplogroup G lived in Europe continuously from their earliest appearance there. But, the data are suggestive.</p>
<p style="text-align:justify;">Haplogroup G could have entered Europe with the spread of Neolithic farming, with one group eventually coalescing into the Rhaetians who in turn gave rise to the Etruscans. If so, we can finally give up the search to identify our Haplogroup G ancestors with some exotic ethnic group from the east. We&#8217;ve been here since the beginning.</p>
<br />Filed under: <a href='http://hauridna.com/category/updates/'>Updates</a> Tagged: <a href='http://hauridna.com/tag/etruscans/'>Etruscans</a>, <a href='http://hauridna.com/tag/rhaetians/'>Rhaetians</a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gocomments/hauridna.wordpress.com/342/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/comments/hauridna.wordpress.com/342/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/godelicious/hauridna.wordpress.com/342/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/delicious/hauridna.wordpress.com/342/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gofacebook/hauridna.wordpress.com/342/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/facebook/hauridna.wordpress.com/342/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gotwitter/hauridna.wordpress.com/342/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/twitter/hauridna.wordpress.com/342/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gostumble/hauridna.wordpress.com/342/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/stumble/hauridna.wordpress.com/342/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/godigg/hauridna.wordpress.com/342/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/digg/hauridna.wordpress.com/342/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/goreddit/hauridna.wordpress.com/342/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/reddit/hauridna.wordpress.com/342/" /></a> <img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=hauridna.com&#038;blog=12745524&#038;post=342&#038;subd=hauridna&#038;ref=&#038;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></content:encoded>
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			<media:title type="html">beaujuste</media:title>
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		<title>Rhaetian Possibilities</title>
		<link>http://hauridna.com/2011/04/10/rhaetian-possibilities/</link>
		<comments>http://hauridna.com/2011/04/10/rhaetian-possibilities/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Apr 2011 18:00:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Justin Swanstrom</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Updates]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Etruscans]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Rhaetians]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hauridna.wordpress.com/?p=338</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Interesting news from the administrator of Family Tree DNA&#8217;s Haplogroup G Project. He thinks the concentration of G in the area that was anciently called Rhaetia might be due to the Rhaetians. The announcement comes seven years, almost to the day, after I first suggested it to him. I&#8217;ve renewed the conversation several times since [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=hauridna.com&#038;blog=12745524&#038;post=338&#038;subd=hauridna&#038;ref=&#038;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p style="text-align:justify;">Interesting news from the administrator of Family Tree DNA&#8217;s Haplogroup G Project. He thinks the concentration of G in the area that was anciently called Rhaetia might be due to the Rhaetians.</p>
<p>The announcement comes seven years, almost to the day, after I first suggested it to him. I&#8217;ve renewed the conversation several times since then. Each time he has objected. He hears dozens of theories every week, he says; no reason to think the Rhaetians are anything worth looking at.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s look at them anyway.</p>
<p><strong>Etruscans</strong></p>
<p>Haplogroup G is rare in Europe. Its distribution follows a gradient from south to north. Maybe 2-3% of the population in the south, and less than 1% in the north. Looking at the area where it appears with the greatest diversity, we can guess that Haplogroup G originated somewhere in southwestern Asia, perhaps south of the Caucasus Mountains. If so, it must have been introduced into Europe at some unknown date in pre-history, perhaps through migrations from what is now Turkey.</p>
<p>As it turns out, there is a notable population said to have come into Europe from Turkey – the Etruscans. The Etruscans were a pre-Roman culture concentrated in what is now the Tuscan area of Italy. They seem to have emerged out of the Villanovan Culture about 700 BCE. From about 620 BCE to 500 BCE they controlled most Italy north of Campania, including Rome itself.</p>
<p>Etruscan origins have been debated for centuries. The Greek historian Herodotus (5th century BCE) claimed the Etruscans came to Italy from Lydia, in what is now Turkey. Four hundred years later, another Greek historian, Dionysius of Halicarnassus, thought Herodotus was wrong. Dionysius thought the Etruscans were indigenous to Italy. Italian historians are inclined to side with Dionysius: it just doesn&#8217;t look right for Rome&#8217;s illustrious predecessors to come from somewhere else.</p>
<p>Outside Italy, historians take a more balanced view. According to the Roman poet Virgil the Etruscans were descended from the Trojans. Many modern historians believe that Virgil’s story of Aeneas’ flight to Italy after the Fall of Troy might be a dim memory of an early migration.</p>
<p><strong>Rhaetians</strong></p>
<p>Rhaetian origins are less contentious. The Rhaetians were a tribe that lived north of the Alps, in what is now Austria, Switzerland and southern Germany. Their language was related to Etruscan. Roman historians reported the Rhaetians as descendants of Etruscans who had fled north during the Celtic invasion of Italy in the 4th century BCE. Livy says, “The Alpine tribes are undoubtedly of the same [Etruscan] stock, especially the Raetii, who had through the nature of their country become so uncivilised that they retained no trace of their original condition except their language, and even this was not free from corruption.” (The Migrations of the Gauls into Italy, Book V, Chapter 33.)</p>
<p>Modern historians accept the connection between the Etruscans and the Rhaetians, but aren’t so sure of the date. Both the Etruscans and the Rhaetians might have been related more distantly; perhaps through a common descent from the neolithic population on both sides of the Alps.</p>
<p><strong>Where does this leave us?</strong></p>
<p>Genetic studies haven&#8217;t solved the question of Etruscan origins, but preliminary studies suggest that some component of the Etruscan population did indeed come from southwestern Asia, and probably from Turkey. And, there is little doubt that the Rhaetians were linguistically connected to the Etruscans, so perhaps genetically connected as well.</p>
<p>We are a long way from being able to prove that the concentration of Haplogroup G the area north of the Alps is due to the Rhaetians and Etruscans, but it makes a good working hypothesis.</p>
<p><strong>Thanks</strong></p>
<p>My thanks to Jon Hildreth. A friendly debate in January 2005 led me to suggest that our Haplogroup G ancestor was more likely to have to been a Roman soldier retired near the Swiss frontier in the 1st century than a barbarian invader in the 4th cenutry.</p>
<br />Filed under: <a href='http://hauridna.com/category/updates/'>Updates</a> Tagged: <a href='http://hauridna.com/tag/etruscans/'>Etruscans</a>, <a href='http://hauridna.com/tag/rhaetians/'>Rhaetians</a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gocomments/hauridna.wordpress.com/338/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/comments/hauridna.wordpress.com/338/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/godelicious/hauridna.wordpress.com/338/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/delicious/hauridna.wordpress.com/338/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gofacebook/hauridna.wordpress.com/338/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/facebook/hauridna.wordpress.com/338/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gotwitter/hauridna.wordpress.com/338/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/twitter/hauridna.wordpress.com/338/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gostumble/hauridna.wordpress.com/338/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/stumble/hauridna.wordpress.com/338/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/godigg/hauridna.wordpress.com/338/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/digg/hauridna.wordpress.com/338/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/goreddit/hauridna.wordpress.com/338/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/reddit/hauridna.wordpress.com/338/" /></a> <img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=hauridna.com&#038;blog=12745524&#038;post=338&#038;subd=hauridna&#038;ref=&#038;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></content:encoded>
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			<media:title type="html">beaujuste</media:title>
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		<title>New Projects at Geni.com</title>
		<link>http://hauridna.com/2011/04/05/new-projects-at-geni-com/</link>
		<comments>http://hauridna.com/2011/04/05/new-projects-at-geni-com/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Apr 2011 22:08:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Justin Swanstrom</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Updates]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Geni.com]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hauridna.wordpress.com/?p=323</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Many y-DNA haplogroups now have projects at Geni.com, a collaborative website for building family trees. More DNA projects are being added as information becomes available. Geni.com is a genealogy website, something on the order of Ancestry.com or Rootsweb.com &#8212; except that users share management of their common ancestors, and cooperate in the process of researching, [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=hauridna.com&#038;blog=12745524&#038;post=323&#038;subd=hauridna&#038;ref=&#038;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p style="text-align:justify;">Many y-DNA haplogroups now have projects at <a title="Geni.com" href="http://www.geni.com/home" target="_blank">Geni.com</a>, a collaborative website for building family trees. More DNA projects are being added as information becomes available.</p>
<p style="text-align:justify;">Geni.com is a genealogy website, something on the order of Ancestry.com or Rootsweb.com &#8212; except that users share management of their common ancestors, and cooperate in the process of researching, documenting and building out their trees. The site currently has over 100 million profiles. It uses a Wikipedia-style environment for research and collaboration. The site&#8217;s goal is &#8220;to build the definitive online family tree&#8221;.</p>
<p style="text-align:justify;">Projects at Geni.com allow users to group the individual profiles of their ancestors into working collections. Projects can be created for a surname, an event, or a topic &#8212; anything that connects a number of profiles together.</p>
<p style="text-align:justify;">The DNA projects at Geni.com are expected to increase the visibility of genetic genealogy, and demonstrate the value of genetic testing.</p>
<p style="text-align:justify;">You can navigate to any of haplogroup projects at Geni.com here:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.geni.com/projects/Y-DNA-Haplogroups" target="_blank">http://www.geni.com/projects/Y-DNA-Haplogroups</a></p>
<p style="text-align:justify;">More projects are being added as information becomes available. Here&#8217;s the link to the L42 group, the group that the includes the main Swiss family of Hauris:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.geni.com/projects/G-L42-S146-Y-DNA" target="_blank">http://www.geni.com/projects/G-L42-S146-Y-DNA</a></p>
<br />Filed under: <a href='http://hauridna.com/category/updates/'>Updates</a> Tagged: <a href='http://hauridna.com/tag/geni-com/'>Geni.com</a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gocomments/hauridna.wordpress.com/323/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/comments/hauridna.wordpress.com/323/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/godelicious/hauridna.wordpress.com/323/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/delicious/hauridna.wordpress.com/323/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gofacebook/hauridna.wordpress.com/323/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/facebook/hauridna.wordpress.com/323/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gotwitter/hauridna.wordpress.com/323/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/twitter/hauridna.wordpress.com/323/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gostumble/hauridna.wordpress.com/323/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/stumble/hauridna.wordpress.com/323/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/godigg/hauridna.wordpress.com/323/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/digg/hauridna.wordpress.com/323/" /></a> <a rel="nofollow" href="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/goreddit/hauridna.wordpress.com/323/"><img alt="" border="0" src="http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/reddit/hauridna.wordpress.com/323/" /></a> <img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=hauridna.com&#038;blog=12745524&#038;post=323&#038;subd=hauridna&#038;ref=&#038;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>Updating our information</title>
		<link>http://hauridna.com/2010/03/22/updating-our-information/</link>
		<comments>http://hauridna.com/2010/03/22/updating-our-information/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Mar 2010 18:03:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Justin Swanstrom</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Updates]]></category>

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		<description><![CDATA[I&#8217;ve neglected many interesting updates to our Hauri project over the past few years. Genetic genealogy is a fast-developing field, where new information quickly supersedes the old. I&#8217;m now re-doing the information here. If you have questions or suggestions, I&#8217;d love to hear from you. Filed under: Updates<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=hauridna.com&#038;blog=12745524&#038;post=79&#038;subd=hauridna&#038;ref=&#038;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p style="text-align:justify;">I&#8217;ve neglected many interesting updates to our Hauri project over the past few years. Genetic genealogy is a fast-developing field, where new information quickly supersedes the old. I&#8217;m now re-doing the information here. If you have questions or suggestions, I&#8217;d love to hear from you.</p>
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